Helen Beddow
In this week's episode, we talk to Antonie Knoppers and Steffen Giessner, about the challenges of leadership during COVID-19 and tools and techniques for leading with presence online. Antonie is a trainer, coach, facilitator, guest speaker and actor, and teaches at the Rotterdam School of Management. He works with a broad range of international and national corporations on leadership and personal development. Steffen is a Professor of Organisational Behaviour and Change at the Rotterdam School of Management, and his research sits at the intersection of psychology and management. Together with co-author, Millie Obdeijn, they have written Leading with presence, fundamental tools and insights for impactful, engaging leadership. So, welcome to the podcast Antonie and Steffen.
Antonie Knoppers
Thanks for having us
Helen Beddow
The book is called Leading with Presence. How do you define "presence" and why is it important in relation to leadership?
Antonie Knoppers
There are a couple of parts of why it's so important for leadership. One is we define it as being in the moment, really having less distractions in your head, and really being with the people that you are with, whether you're giving a presentation or having a meeting. And then the other thing that defines for us presence is how to motivate, inspire instil confidence, exude confidence and instil trust with others that for us is presence. When we also talk about it is, you sort of notice it from people when they walk into the room there's sort of an air to people who have a lot of presence without it being bombastic, they take up the right amount of space they use their voice and their body language in such a way that it's in complete balance with what they verbally communicate, and they really connect with people and that's for us, is really what presence is all about.
Steffen Giessner
It's interesting, the term presence. There’re actually two research areas actually being used as a real term; one is on virtual realities. So that's about, if you are in a virtual world, do you really feel you are on this world? Do you also feel that other people are out there, as they share the space, and whether you actually connect with them? So, these other three layers in a way of presence. The other field where presence is used is nursing science So for nursing, it's about whether you are there, being there with the client, with the patient and secondly being with the patient so in a way in its strongest form it always means that you make a connection to someone, and that's in such different areas as virtual realities as, as much as nursing. And I think when it comes to leadership, one of the defining issues of leadership is there is no leader without followers. You need to connect to someone and only with the connection you can exert leadership in a way of influence In that sense we focus on this presence of that you are actually taking the step of being there with persons, with your audience, but also you connect with this audience. This way you actually exert that leadership.
Helen Beddow
It sounds like there's really two parts to it - what you convey, what you put out, and also what you take in from other people, that being present to listen, that's really interesting. what role do you see emotional intelligence and authenticity playing in relation to this?
Steffen Giessner
Emotional intelligence, especially in the sense of you have to get to know your audience, understand your audience to make a connection, and to be there with your audience. That actually is important to understand your audience, understand the emotions they show, make sense out of them and react correctly towards them. So that's one of these aspects of emotional intelligence and you see that a lot on these nonverbal cues as well, not just on the, on the verbal cues, but it's actually most often that we pick up the nonverbal cues to make sense of what people think and how do they feel. Somebody might say something I'm pretty confident, but you see in their behaviours, or they show non-verbally they do not feel comfortable because they move a lot and show nervousness somehow in the movements they have. Authenticity is one important aspect we consider because one of the things is that what is important is the message you want to bring across has to be somehow concurrent with the non-verbal parts of the message. And we see a lot of people not having that. And that led other people to believe they are not authentic. It's interesting from research we know that actually the authenticity, we feel, like I was authentic in a situation is not necessarily the authenticity others perceive. So there's hardly any relationship between what I say about myself, about my authenticity and what others see, and I think in many ways that kind of emotion intelligence, and just kind of aligning of message and non-verbal cues is a sense of that. So you need to have alignment with that to actually show authenticity or perceive authenticity, because that's what you really want to have, that other people perceive you as authentic, and sometimes it's this thing that we might not feel very much authentic and engaging in these things because for us it's strange sometimes to show strong emotions for instance even though the message is emotion.
Antonie Knoppers
What we tried to do in the book is give a lot of exercises in a way to not let the emotions overwhelm us. I'm sure we all recognise that we wrote that email in haste, in anger, and then we send it or we say something in a heated meeting, and you walk away and go, "Why did I say that?" and what we want to offer people is a way in through the body because we believe that's a very quick way in to apply things like grounding and breathing in which you can still have those emotions but have more choice in managing the emotions that's actually what also emotional intelligence partly is how do you manage the emotions that are there, I mean, we're human beings we're going to always have emotions about something. But how do you have more management over your emotions, that's what's really interesting to us and we find ways through the body, to have more management over that and then in terms of the authenticity, I think it's what's the three of us the three authors of this book see a lot is because we give other kinds of trainings as well we see leaders, convey messages, the words are beautiful but the team members see something else, they feel something else, And that's for me the whole main thing is in balance, and as long as what you say is in balance with what you show you're doing great, but unfortunately we find in the many presentations we've seen, in the talks we've seen leaders give to their team members and their stakeholders, that that's often not the case. So, we think it's really worthwhile to spend some time delving into the body language and the voice, to see how then do you support those elements with your verbal communication.
Helen Beddow
That's really interesting because I've always assumed if I'm authentic, if I'm saying something authentically that will somehow, translate, just automatically I've not considered properly how other people feel and how that might clash with what I feel is authentic. And I think also the role of emotions, emotions are information, they're how people make decisions and I think you've always got to take that into account. So over the last year with the pandemic, we've all moved to online communication, we're all talking virtually over zoom, how can understanding and nonverbal communication help us in meetings and conversations that we're having over zoom you know how do we portray that authenticity?
Antonie Knoppers
It's been a challenge for many and the term zoom fatigue is really out there now and I think is legitimate, because I find that now we're not travelling to the office anymore visiting clients, people's days are just completely packed with meeting after meeting after meeting. And then there's elements that are really not natural, as in, we wouldn't have them if we were having face to face meetings, so for instance, you see yourself. And rarely do we look at ourselves and go "Wow Do I look good today". That's one thing that makes these zoom and teams meetings very unnatural. The other thing is we're staring at each other's faces if you're sitting in, you know, a conference room you might turn away a little, you might want to look somewhere else you might be thinking, and we find that in these zoom meetings there's these very concentrated faces looking at each other, which can be very intimidating. So what we've tried to do is devote a big part in one chapter of our book on how to make your online meetings more engaging, and, you know, things like having better posture, having more alignment, doing more grounding, doing deeper breathing but also using all the vocal elements that you have at your disposal. Because especially a lot of people don't have their cameras on. So, then it's all the voice, and of course the verbal elements. So, instead of sort of droning on monotonously support your presentation, and your communication with all the tools that are available with your voice, things like changing the register of your voice, varying the tempo of your voice, the volume, using emphasis. Those are all easy ways in to make your voice really much more engaging and therefore have a bit less of that Zoom fatigue.
Steffen Giessner
It's better that the pandemic is now than like 10 years ago. The tech that we have nowadays with Zoom and Teams and other platforms to see each other. We actually have nice conversations which also helps a lot. Our screens are better, our webcams are better. So, that's a good thing. I've been one of the things I experience a lot is like, you know, we just talk about what presence is one of the difficulties we ourselves have in these conversations is that we are present. As far as how to… so, if I sit in front of a screen and talk with the other people, it gives me a different feeling because it's not face to face, it's not directly the same. I can see the face to face, but it's not like being there in person. Not being that person makes it harder to have this connection, what I said that is like presence is like being there, being with. The first step would be that I bring myself to be there and be with, so much more easily get distracted because we might have emails, we can go on the internet, all of these things become much more easier now. So, it starts with us that we are not there, and then it's hard actually to make the connection because you only have small pictures of the other ones, seeing, we don't want to rely on the nonverbal cues so we probably listen a bit more to the voice there, but we still want to see a bit more and it's hard sometimes to see the face correctly or you have to make a choice whether you want to have a big face, or see like everybody in that. So, you have to make some choices that kind of restricts us and this is not like the normal way we normally have it in the person to person contact. It's not too bad what we have technically available, but still, I think it starts, a bit like was ourselves on bringing ourselves in that context of being there and being present. And if everybody just asked that, it's a much more richer conversation, and all of these cues will come back because we will be there and connect with each other, and bring out the right emotions and not read an email and kind of be distracted for a second. All of these things that just happened, you kind of see sometimes in the face that somebody just does something different now, and is not paying attention, and that's a problem so if everybody just engages in that being there and being with than a probably a much better conversation.
Antonie Knoppers
And that ties into what we say about leadership, you as a leader, are always watched. Leaders need to realise that even when you know you're back at the office and you're getting a cup of coffee, the stakeholders and the employees are always gauging the mood of a leader, always, subconsciously or consciously, and the way, a leader sits, the way their eye contact is, all those things really influence the employees. So also in these video conferencing sessions, I think as a leader you can take the example and really trying not to multitask, which is very tempting I mean all those, you know, sounds and the email notifications. So, one thing I do when I give online workshops is, you know, my phone is on silent. I can't see it. All my notifications are off because obviously when I'm teaching, I really want to be present, but I also have to set the example. I think that's important to realise as a leader, you can set the example and really try to have others also not multitask because it is tempting I find it tempting too - it's four o'clock, you've had six or seven meetings. The meeting may not be as engaging and you start to look on LinkedIn, or read your emails, etc it's normal I get it, but that would never happen in person meeting, you would notice right away if someone's on their phone, it would be considered a little rude.
Helen Beddow
I sometimes struggle with that, by the time I get to the end of the day, my brain feels like fudge and I’m basically just saying word salad. Keeping myself in the meeting, in the room, and not just checking stuff online is quite tricky. Are there any other specific tips or tricks that you can suggest to listeners using these platforms?
Steffen Giessner
What we recommend is like you sit in a position that makes you more active, not like slumping in your chair but maybe sitting more active, upright on your chair. That kind of gives you a little bit more energy. A couple of my colleagues, you see them standing in the office, even some have these platforms to walk on, just to get like this physical part which you normally have maybe in other contexts, but you also stand and walk a little bit when you talk with other persons. So, in that sense having some more…. taking care of your physical activity level and sitting in a good position should also help you not to be tired and be more active, engaged in the conversation.
Antonie Knoppers
We mentioned some other tips in the book, for instance when you're communicating, I tend to look into the camera, because it gives others the feeling that I'm looking, you know, having direct eye contact and then to see their reaction I'll look down. It helps with that connection. So in person, you just have, you know, eye contact but online it's just a little different, taking care of good lighting, so that you're not lit from the back and you don't look all creepy and dark. I see a lot of people working sight and looking off, and not at all into the camera, so there's technical things you can do and, you know like Steffen says physical things because we tend to slouch a lot in front of our laptop so just sitting upright, will really not only help others, because you seem much more energised and present, but really help yourself as well, and you'll have more room for breath. Helen if it's four o'clock and you're drained, you’ve had meetings all day, one thing I do when I'm in that situation which happens a lot is, first of all I ground, I make sure I'm grounded, because then I do it right now so that made me calmer, my voice drops, I tend to talk slower when I ground. I'm much more in the moments, and then the breathing, breathing deeply from the diaphragm not from here, you know the high chest area but breathing lower will help bring me more in the moment, it will energise me it will help me to focus. So, there's really a lot of ways in with the body, and of course the voice to make yourself a much more engaging and effective communicator in online meetings.
Helen Beddow
I have actually sat up straight. Now, since we've been talking, I've got myself sitting properly. Tell me, what is grounding?
Antonie Knoppers
Grounding would be if you place both feet flat on the floor, which also tend to rarely do when we're sitting will usually have - or standing for that matter - one way in, is to think that there's the roots you're rooting yourself into the floor, much like a tree does right, so think right now the roots of a tree growing through your legs, through your feet, and rooting itself into the ground or on the floor. So, when I do that, instantly I'm grounded and it's a really great way to, to calm yourself and to be much more present and to give yourself more energy and focus.
Helen Beddow
And book is about the concept of presence in relation to leadership, but it does seem that a lot of these tips actually are really useful for anybody. How is presence important to those who are not in leadership and how can understanding and using this help people potentially move into leadership positions?
Steffen Giessner
In the science world we would make a differentiation when we talk about leadership and we talk about leaders. So, leaders, we know these are people in a specific structural position of power, within a hierarchical position. When you talk about leadership, you talk more about a skill, about something you can learn, something you exert. So, when we talk about leadership in a way, it means everybody can just do that, and leadership means somebody is following you somehow, somebody is engaging with you. So, in that sense, I think everything we say in the book is not necessarily meant for those persons who are in a structural position of being a leader. Certainly, these people have it very much necessary to…. because they are observed all the time, they are the kind of role models we look towards, they definitely have it – need it. But otherwise I think in many situations, we always, everyone of us takes over the lead. It might be, you know, family at home. When you want to say how the evening should actually look like and you want to convince the other ones then we also have to show some leadership, but also in the business context when you have to give a pitch to your boss, you also have to show leadership because you have to convince them, you have to influence them, you have to be upfront, you have to be engaging with them. And so, just giving or providing leadership in a way is an everyday experience we all have.
Antonie Knoppers
The way we saw it, it is really the leadership within yourself, your personal leadership. So, the book really is for anyone who communicates basically, who wants to make their communication - be it a presentation, be it a meeting, be it a pitch or negotiation - more effective, more engaging, more inspiring, more motivating. And we sought with a book to give as much a combination of research and exercises, so it's really really practical.
Helen Beddow
It’s also really important to think about personal leadership in that context of speaking to external clients and to third parties, and engaging people outside of your workplace as well. Given the predominance of email and instant messaging and teams and zoom that we use now we are all working from home, that's only been heightened during the pandemic. What's important about how we use voice and expression and storytelling in our business communication?
Steffen Giessner
It's actually an interesting question. So, we've, we actually can adapt very easily technology, and we find new ways to read all the non-verbal cues in there. It might be, when you do WhatsApp you have emoticons, so this is a way of non-verbally, dealing with our expressions. What we cannot put in words, we put in these emoticons, and they are used a lot. We now can say words, we can record that, so actually people get to hear your voice now. I think these nonverbal paths are in as much important because we search for this information, as well, as part of our communication, in as much important now on these online environments, as they are in a personal environment. It might be just that some of these things become more important, you could imagine that the voice has a strong impact now then maybe the posture recedes, because we don't see the full body. But anyway, the posture, if you sit now active, you probably also have a better voice or more energising words, so it's not to say that the rest of posture doesn't play a role. It's just that how it arrives to the receiver now it might be more through the voice that the other aspects.
Antonie Knoppers
I think since March, February last year, people really need more of that connection, I think nowadays we tend to just dive into meetings and have very little chit chat, even the chit chat seems stilted and unnatural - we talk about two things, the weather and Corona. If we were in person and we were meeting, the chitchat would be very different and I think actually much longer and I think one of the things that communicators and leaders can really use during these days is the element of storytelling because it's such a powerful communication tool, and it's a way to really increase your authenticity towards your stakeholders and employees, and also show some vulnerability. I think leaders often have sort of this stance of like “I have to be the tough one, the one in control”, and often that's the case, but I think those moments where the leader goes “you know what, I struggle with this too, I'm having a difficult time with this as well” and uses story to illustrate that it can do so much with the connection with your team because then your team members see. “Oh, you also, you also struggle with this, okay” and it sort of makes it more alright for the others. I'm not saying as a leader you should do this when you just start leading your team, that's a moment I wouldn't do that. But if you've been a leader of a team for a while or your communicating something with your stakeholders, using a personal story where you struggled or had a challenge like we all do, you know, since February last year, I think really can help that connection and help get your message across in a really powerful and effective way.
Helen Beddow
That's true, I can think of people doing that across the last year and it has actually changed, me as a listener, how I'm feeling and how I'm receiving that information, it’s very true and I think also something else I've been using a lot is gif and memes. I use that one from Community a lot where he comes in with the pizzas and everything's on fire, it's shorthand that everybody understands. It's probably still going to be quite a while before we can meet in person and have mass gatherings, you know have conferences, if business leaders can't talk to their staff members directly in person, how can they help maintain that good communication and purposeful leadership through technology?
Steffen Giessner
One of the things I observed over the last month, lots of people, including myself, in managerial positions we kind of complain and at the same time being proud of having more meetings. So the kind of message comes over as, “oh I have so many meetings now” but it's kind of this complaining about but at the the same time kind of giving the message we are proud of it because now we compensate, somehow, for these kinds of communication. I think the point is we underestimate is actually that we actually do not compensate for the communication, because all of this type of informal communication you would normally have in your office, where people just observe you, you just share coffee. All of these things are not there. And there's so much this informal type of communication we have that, even if we now do more official type of communication, and that's why a lot of people miss that, they miss that context in the office for these reasons. So, I think one of the advices is to use as much as possible technology in different ways of interactions with their teams, not just have a normal zoom meeting but also try to have some more type of social meetings. There are now a lot of companies becoming interesting and offering different types of services online, that feels a bit more like the normal interactions and so on. But leaders should also be aware, probably we never really can fully compensate all the information we give in a communication compared to in person context. But I would motivate everybody just to use as many different- and try out, maybe - as many different software, which is available to get in communication, and especially also in social communication, with their teams or some of the team members.
Antonie Knoppers
There is a real opportunity to connect outside of the sort of scheduled meetings. I mean, we're all working from home, Helen and Steffen can see my background and, and I can see Steffen and that's unique. I've noticed throughout the year, you know, some people use virtual backgrounds and we advise to do that if your background is very messy. But otherwise, I’m like “well why not, why not look, have a peek into this is who I am,” and I think to use more of this ways of connecting but really scheduling the sort of what we call water cooler moments right these natural moments where you're in the hallway, you come across someone at the office and you have that little impromptu chat. It doesn't exist anymore. So, unfortunately, now we have to sort of make these half hour, hour or however long meetings where we don't talk about work and we just really check in with each other. So I think that's important for leaders to do, I know companies who have town halls, I know companies who sort of set Friday as a no appointment day, and I think that's really helpful too, because we're inundated, I think with appointments now, for leaders to find those times to connect with our team you can get as personal as people want, but just to connect to each other in a different way than the agenda of the day and the to dos and all those other things
Helen Beddow
Across the last year, we've all witnessed both political leaders and senior medical figures around the world communicating this kind of complex scientific information and these widespread changes to our everyday lives , communicating the process of lockdown and the rules around lockdowns and we see that on TV, on mass media platforms. What role, have you seen nonverbal communication play in the way these announcements are made?
Steffen Giessner
At the moment there is an interest in this information, so what's the new information we get. But if you think about what information really had impacted maybe yourself, or if I think about myself, what information about COVID, how bad it is, then I think more on these scenes on the media where, for instance, nurses talked about how heavy the work is currently they're doing, how bad it is, and showing strong emotions. So, when we see our politicians talking about the pandemic it's more like an information sharing session. There's not much emotion with that, it doesn't have this kind of personal story to it. I guess that also makes people, to a certain degree, not with them all the time, not being fully convinced by the severity of that. Whereas when I see these nurses talking, or also doctors talking about it and showing strong emotions with that, maybe even crying when they start talking about seeing patients die. This has a much stronger impact on me as an observer, as a recipient of that information. So, I think one of the things is like why do our politicians or whoever, provides that information also not show some more emotions on that, because it should have stronger impact. That's in a way what our book is also about what we recommend, showing a bit of that makes the messages just much more stronger and aligned. Coming back to authenticity, it makes the point you want to say, if you want to say it's really severe than just saying it a very monotonous …. doesn't have the same impact. So in that sense I think what we can learn from these nurses is that also politicians maybe should show a bit more emotions, and with this comes the nonverbal cues that actually would fit the message they want to bring across. Because now they just give along the new measures they need to take, and they just give us like numbers, and we are tired of these numbers. I think people would much more respond if you're talking about specific cases that happened, who passed away maybe, I think these are the emotional messages that bring the message really into us.
Antonie Knoppers
I think as a leader, communicator of the gravity of what's going on, I think empathy also really helps. So, colouring your voice with empathy and compassion, think about if you have a child and your child walks in the room crying, you would use your voice a certain way to comfort that child. We do that automatically, so why not as a leader, communicator, during these times, convey that to the people that you're communicating with that's one thing and then I think it's really important to also convey authority in the way of clarity, the gravity of what's going on, how dire things are in certain parts of the world, and I think then it becomes even harder and more important for people to convey, “please be patient for a little longer because things are really dire right now”. And if you convey that in a very monotonous voice, as Steffen says, the meaning and the message just won't get across as effectively as if you really use all the vocal elements such as emphasis, such as tempo speaking, the register of your voice. I'm going lower right now, going slower, those are things that research has proven really has an impact to the listener. So speaking for instance, the high voice this way and really nervous, is very different than speaking slower and calmer, and with a lower voice so to consider all those things in the way you communicate, especially, during these times is really really important in my opinion.
Helen Beddow
I have quite a high-pitched voice, and I have a tendency to speak fast when I'm engaged and interested in something, so I'll speed up. How do you advise people to be conscious of that?
Antonie Knoppers
The first step is to indeed be conscious of it. So, we have lots of exercises that we do in our workshops and also, we've written, of course, a tonne in our book. One way in to get to a lower register, first of all you need a deeper breath right so when we're nervous or excited, two things happen. The voice goes up, and our breath goes up. “Hi everyone, it's great to see you, I'm really excited” right so, so that happens right away, and it does something to not only the communicator, but also the listener. And a way in is for instance, one of the things we use is children's stories. Children's stories are wonderful because they usually have various characters so think of Winnie the Pooh right - so there's Winnie the Pooh, there's the rabbit, rabbit, would have a very different voice from Winne the Pooh who might talk really slowly, really low and so if you have kids, we always recommend, they're the best audience because they're brutally honest usually, and use the characters in the story to discover those lower voices because your ear has to get used to that, because our ear is used to hearing our voice. And as soon as you dip into a lower voice, the ears going to go “wait, that's not your voice”, but it is, it is your voice, it's just using your voice in a different way. So, we tell people whose register tends to be high, first of all to breathe deeper, to ground, because that always lowers the voice right automatically. Singing is really wonderful- Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody is the one I always recommend because it has that “Galileo, Galileo”. So that's a really fun one to practice, and if you feel you know self-conscious practice alone in the car for instance or while you're walking, I guess, yeah, there are many ways in many exercises to really strengthen your voice to make it much more engaging and effective.
Steffen Giessner
This kind of nonverbal part of our toolbox, and this also emotional intelligence is a part we can train, and we can learn. The issue here comes - we’ve talked about authenticity- when you start training that you feel very much inauthentic, because it's new, we have a lot of people when we give trainings where they think they talk loud. And when we say to them “really kind of shout at us” for the audience, for the other people on the course, they give the feedback: “Now you sound like a normal volume” but for themselves it's like “oh I was shouting so loud, it must have been horrible for everybody”. So, this is again where the difference is between how you feel yourself what is authentic and what the others see. So, in a way, if you start practising, if you start learning, if you start trying out, if you feel inauthentic, it's a good thing because one perspective of authenticity is whenever you feel inauthentic you're actually learning. So, it's a bit like driving a car, in the beginning it's all kind of weird and strange, but now we just do it l automatic. And the same thing comes with these non-verbal parts, you have to train at first, it's overwhelming, you kind of forget other things if you concentrate on one. But if you practice it more it becomes automatic again and then it becomes authentic again.
Helen Beddow
Have you got any good examples of impactful engaging techniques from leaders that you've witnessed?
Antonie Knoppers
I think Obama especially his DNC speech in August last year, I think was absolutely brilliant. And what I think he's so effective in communicating is his pauses, but he stays in eye contact, that's really important during a pause because we say that the message lingers on in the silence, right, so he'll say something, and he’ll pause and that gives the listener, and the viewer time to absorb the information but it also adds some gravitas to the information. And then I think he was very moved in that speech, and he was visibly moved and seemed for me very authentic in that moment, without being overly emotional where people might disengage and I think he handles that tightrope just brilliantly and, for sure, he's someone I very much admire in the way he communicates. Of course, Martin Luther King is the absolute - I mean the way the man spoke was almost like he was singing, it was so beautiful. And then I think Jacinda Arden I really like too because she has a sort of personal touch to, I think, how she communicates that I think is so unique to a leader in such a position. That for me feels very effective in the way she connects with others.
Steffen Giessner
I might also add Michelle Obama, we often show a video of her where she is in a bookstore signing her books, and that takes a long time because a lot of people want to get a signature. And she really focuses on every individual and is present for every individual in that scene which is quite impressive for such a long time sitting there. And you never have the feeling that she shows different type of energy or attention, I should better say that, to everybody who comes along, and that's quite impressive as well And again she shows there actually this presence, again being there and being with every person who's there, showing full attention to them. And that brings naturally also the right emotion, and the right non-verbal cues, non-verbal language you need to have in a situation.
Helen Beddow
I do always think that the Obamas are very authentic, they definitely manage to portray that sense of authenticity very well. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast that was absolutely fascinating and I will be sitting up straight, a lot more.
Steffen
Perfect, thank you, thank you for this time and thank you for offering opportunities to talk about our book.
Antonie
Thank you, Helen, it was lovely to be with you.
Helen Beddow
You can find the link to Anthony and Stefan's book below in the show notes. Thank you very much for listening, and we hope you join us all again in two weeks’ time.