Helen Beddow
Schools are based on a fundamental principle - to provide access to education and Safe and Supportive Learning Environments for all students. Student populations in schools are becoming increasingly diverse, are we seeing this diversity reflected in school leadership? Do we need to reshape our education systems to foster diversity and inclusion and how can schools ensure that they are building truly equitable learning environments? In this episode, we speak with three experts in educational leadership, Martin Scanlon from Boston College USA, Kim Schildkamp, from the University of Twente in the Netherlands, and Pak Tee Ng from Nanyang Technology University in Singapore. We discuss the power and responsibility that teachers have, why we need better data to improve our schools, the importance of student voice and human conversations and the ways that schools can partner with their communities. I hope you will enjoy this conversation.
Martin Scanlon
My name is Martin Scanlon, and I work at Boston College in the United States, and I work in Educational Leadership. My role at the Journal of Professional Capital and Community (JCCC) is as the editor in chief.
Kim Schildkamp
My name is Kim Schildkamp. I work as a professor at the University of Twente. I work for the teacher training college as well as for our Master programme, educational science and technology, and I am the global editor for JCCC.
Pak Tee Ng
Hello everyone, my name is Pak Tee Ng. I'm from Singapore. I work at the National Institute of Education, and I'm privileged to be able to help my country develop teacher leaders and school leaders, and always very glad to be able to do this.
Helen Beddow
So tell me a little bit about what you mean by diversity in school leadership and why there is a need for diversity in school leadership positions.
Martin Scanlon
I think diversity means different things in different contexts in school leadership and so I'd be curious to hear from my colleagues here about diversity in their contexts. I'm speaking from the United States. And when we think about diversity, we think about it across many different dimensions including race and ethnicity, gender, gender identity. When we think about diversity, though… also regionally in the United States because the regions of schooling are such different contexts, and also have experience levels diversity of people across different experience levels. So diversity is multifaceted and I imagine that it's particular to different places, how diversity is manifest in school leadership. Kim and Pak Tee what are your thoughts on that?
Kim Schildkamp
I think the definition that you just gave is a similar definition that we use here in the Netherlands. Diversity has so many different lenses that you can look at, including the ones you said - gender, ethnicity, experience, and so on. I think when we're talking about diversity in relation to leadership in our schools, we want our schools to be a reflection of our society, which means that we need to have diversity in the different leadership roles. Maybe good to state here - when I talk about leadership, I'm thinking about formal and informal leadership so I'm thinking about the principal of the school but I'm also thinking about team leaders, but I'm also thinking about teachers who take on leadership tasks, and behaviours without actually being a formal leader and I don't know if you use the same definition when talking about leadership, but that might be something to address here.
Pak Tee Ng
I think that diversity is about the richness of opinions, of suggestions, of ideas, of representing different types of people and different types of thinking, so that we arrive at a decision that will serve more people. And so that is why diversity is important, because that is part of respecting different peoples, and that is part of serving different people.
Martin Scanlon
I think that's a very good point, Pak Tee and it actually speaks to the need for diversity across different dimensions. So Kim, you're saying that diversity, to be reflective of society, and that's one thing that we often think about in diversity, but I'm hearing something different also Pak Tee where you're talking about the pedagogical, and the purpose of schooling to foster critical reflection and growth mindset, and respect for the plurality, a way of thinking about complex problems and all of those different goals of schooling are served by diversity across different dimensions as we've been saying. You also made the point Kim, that when we think about diversity important for leadership, that leadership itself is a term that calls for a complex way of thinking about it. Some people who have positional authority are not respected as leaders. And conversely, some people who are not in positional authority have a tremendous leadership role in the school or the district or the school system. So I think that that's a very helpful way to also make us think about the importance of diversity and what the need for diversity is.
Helen Beddow
I'm kind of interested in what the current state of diversity is in your schools. Do schools in your areas, in your regions, in your contexts, have diverse leadership at the moment?
Kim Schildkamp
I would say that it really differs per school, and it also depends on the definition that you use for diversity and Pak Tee I really like your definition as well, thinking about different opinions and ideas because I think, especially if we're talking about diversity and also equity (which is of course related to this) I think having that conversation about what it means as a school to work on equity goals is about having that conversation with different people with different ideas and together come up with ways to work on this, so I really like your perspective on diversity Pak Tee.
Martin Scanlon
One of the aspects that's occurring to me as we think about your question, do we have diversity, it of course builds from what we just were talking about, about how complex diversity is and it depends as Kim said. So, maybe in some ways there is diversity. So if we're talking about in some schools with more experienced leaders and in some schools with more novice leaders, yes we may have that diversity. In terms of racial diversity, it depends. In some places, we have diversity of our leadership but the preponderance in the United States of school leaders would identify as white and would not be people of colour. And so the answer is yes and no. But the thought that occurs to me is a slightly different way of answering that question of do we have diversity, and that is how is the leadership contained or distributed? And by definition, every positional leader has only certain dimensions of diversity that they, in themselves hold. They're not the complexity of society and the plurality of society. And so, when school leaders, structure the school to distribute leadership, with different bodies and teams that share in the decision making and have partnerships, that is the way in which leaders can foster diverse leadership in the school, and whatever their positional identity is the leader needs to do that. So that's something that's occurring to me.
Helen Beddow
That's a really interesting point, I mean one of the reasons I always ask about the definitions at start is just because I think when we have words like diversity or impact or words that we use regularly a lot, we forget that not everybody might have the same meaning or understanding, like whoever's listening might not have the same understanding of the word diversity.
Martin Scanlon
I’d even go further, it's not that they might not, is that they definitely won't.
Helen Beddow
Yes
Martin Scanlon
It's not that they might not have the same definition, you need to assume they don't. The assumption should be when I say a word like diversity, what pops into Kim’s head, what pops into Pak Tee’s head and what pops into your head Helen is by definition different.
Helen Beddow
yeah.
Kim Schildkamp
Diversity is different also a very interesting concept because there are a lot of different lenses that you can use when exploring diversity. My researcher hat on, I think diversity is a very interesting object of study, and even trying to define it and looking at the different lenses of diversity and how people interpret the term diversity is already interesting in itself.
Helen Beddow
Definitely. And so with such a diverse kind of range of meanings, lenses, aspects of diversity, you know, I can imagine there are a lot of challenges and opportunities in actually building an equitable learning environment for all students, especially as within each school and within each region there's going to be a different context. So what are some of the challenges and opportunities here for schools?
Kim Schildkamp
if I may respond to that first with a little bit of bias there because my main field of study is data use in education. I think from our studies what we've seen is that the use of data is very important if you want to create more equitable schools. Some of our studies we've been working in contexts where there are not a lot of data available and where a lot of decisions are based on intuition and experiences. And this usually does not work out very positively for students from certain backgrounds. Whereas if you combine experience and intuition with data and really looking into the data in depth using your different opinions and different ideas, then you can come up with a really good understanding of what that particular child needs, and you can adapt instruction to the needs of that student, and that it really works. Whereas if you don't use data, or use it in a very superficial way, then a lot of biases are often confirmed instead of contradicted.
Helen Beddow
Absolutely. We think of data as neutral, but unless you know the data fell from the sky fully formed in a data set which no human person has constructed, then there is potentially always an element of bias in that data.
Kim Schildkamp
But that's why the collaboration and collective sense making and the dialogue around data is very important because in one of our studies, one of the teachers actually said - and this was about a very important decision in education which follow up track does the student go to - and two students with exactly the same grades on national standardised assessment. One student was advised to a lower track because of the background indicators, this teacher actually said “well but I know this child, he's not very motivated, and I know his family I think he's better off in one of the lower tracks” whereas the grades are exactly the same. What you would like to see especially if you work in a team that you actually confront each other with these biases, and that one of the other teachers or school leaders says “But wait a minute this child with exactly the same grades, you will advise him or her to go to a higher track, so why the difference? Is this a bias, or is this child really better off on that lower track, or should we give them the chance to go to that high track?” and I think data are just numbers or qualitative data, but it's about the dialogue and conversation that you need to have to help children learn basically, or to enhance their well being, because it's not all about learning schools have more goals than just learning.
Pak Tee Ng
So maybe I'll make two points down here, one, because Kim talked about data. So, one is that there is a positive difference between evidence-informed decision making versus decision-based evidence gathering. In a way, kind of cynically, perhaps, one can always make data say whatever one wants by kind of choosing what you want to focus on and stuff like that. So I think it is important that when we say diversity, to connect back with a previous question, - firstly I'd have to say mine is not really a definition of diversity it’s just one way of understanding it. So diversity, from a systems perspective is strength. When you have diversity, there is strength in the system. But it is a double-edged sword. Because diversity can be strength and diversity, when it's really diversity, has a way of creating a lot of tensions in the system as well, and that potentially can tear the system apart. Therefore, diversity is strength but on the other hand, it is as important to have unity in purpose. That is to say, that we can all come from different backgrounds, have different ways of thinking about things but If we are educators, then we ought to have unity in purpose. That is really for the next generation. It is for the good of the children. In which case where we have diversity in our schools, and yet a unity of purpose then, despite the differences about what we think we ought to do we know that we are all on the same side, working for the good of the children. Therefore, all of us will be much more open minded. It's not about me already making a decision in my mind. Then, of course I'm not open to evidence. But if I want to be open minded that is because I truly believe in education for the good of the children. Therefore, if you have good evidence that shows that this is a better way, let's go that way. So we can all be different. And that difference is going to be strength provided we have unity in purpose.
Kim Schildkamp
I think that's an excellent point there Pak Tee. One of the things I always advocate for is don't start with data but start with your purpose and goals. And I think a very important goal for our schools is working on equity.
Martin Scanlon
So one of the challenges of building equitable learning environments across these different dimensions of diversity is this tension that you're mentioning here between the strength of diversity. And then, the need for a unity of purpose. Different schools respond to this challenge in different ways. So one type of school that I've worked with quite a bit is schools with large populations of students with different mother tongues. And so we talk about them as culturally and linguistically diverse schools. And you could see how a school with a large population of students who speak English, and a large population of students who speak Spanish, which would be a common phenomenon in the United States, that that could be a tension, and that that diversity could not be seen as a strength, particularly if the school is organised in a manner that only affirmed English as the language. In that situation, literally, it's seen as a deficit – “ I'm sorry you speak a different language that's not English because that's not going to help you in this school” - and the organisation of the school exacerbates that tension, and the organisation of that school does not see that diversity and treat that diversity as a strength. And then to flip that into the organisation that affirms and cultivates bilingualism, that builds upon a student's home language and that fosters that bilingualism amongst both the students who are native English speakers, and the students who are native Spanish speakers, that structure of a school is a response to that challenge in a very different way. And that's, I think, whether it's language, or whether it's racial difference or whether it's disability status, whether it's difference in religion, the ways in which school leaders recognise the diversities within their communities and then seek to foster a unity of purpose - that is at the heart of how school leadership can respond to these challenges and see opportunities in diversity.
Kim Schildkamp
I think if I can add to that, in terms of these opportunities, one of the things that I've noticed when I was working in the US and Louisiana for a while. I'm talking about diversity that leadership needs to pay attention to, diversity and equity not only in the classroom but in the entire community. Because I still remember and I think this was over 10 years ago, I was visiting a school and I was shown around by the principal of the school, and he told me that half the population was African American, the other half were white students, but everybody worked together, and equity was an important goal for the school and it worked really well. And in the classrooms, it looked really well, but when it was lunchtime, we went into cafeteria and all the African American students were sitting on the left, and all the wite students were sitting on the right so I think when talking about diversity and equity, we need to look at it with a wider community lens, and not only with regard to what is happening in the classroom.
Helen Beddow
it seems to me that from all what three of you are saying is that the school leadership kind of needs to sit down and instead of adding diversity on as like part of a strategy, it needs to kind of have a central strategy for how it's going to handle diversity and equity in terms of its goals and how it's going to set up systems, processes, training, tools for teachers, for leaders to actually be able to reach those goals. How can we develop systems that support teacher leaders or leadership in education in the work towards equity?
Kim Schildkamp
I was thinking about leadership and diversity and leadership strategies and leadership roles, and I was looking - I think we all know these lists of it's important to have a clear vision, goals, it's important to be a role model, it's important to provide support to teachers, it's important to create a safe climate, and these are very general leadership strategies, but I do think that they can be applied very well to equity in education because I think as a leader you have to be a role model on how to embrace diversity, and you have to set up these collaborations and discussions on what equity means and what diversity means. The way we started this session, actually. So I think if you take these general leadership lists, I was looking at it and I think we can apply them to equity because Pak Tee, taking your point about having a purpose, it's very easy to say that as a school we think equity is important. But what does it look like, what are the goals related to equity? So having a clear vision and goals is important. So I think it would be very interesting to look at these leadership strategies and see how they apply to diversity and equity.
Pak Tee Ng
I’ll build on what Kim has said just now, especially when she said that actually a school, it reflects the wider society. I think that is so important not just in diversity but in equity as well. So I'm thinking about the system, the wider system, more than just one school, or one classroom. That is to say of course in the class as a class teacher I try my best. One can also say as a school leader, I try my best. But I think, at the system, meaning that as a whole country, for example - it depends on the unit of analysis or it could be state or a country but much bigger than just a school - do we actually really believe as a society in the principles of equity? That is to say that children, regardless of race, language, religion, background should have a fair chance not only just education but in life? Then education provides them that support and pathway, so that they can find success in their own ways. I think it is much more important to actually talk about the entire society. So sometimes, not all the time, sometimes, actually, education - it reflects what the society actually believes in and wants. And sometimes we are constrained by that. Of course, there is a chance for educators to work such that the society becomes better. But equally the society has a very big influence on the functioning of schools.
Martin Scanlon
I think that's a good point. To build on comments you were making Kim, as well as how you were following that Pak Tee, in terms of developing systems to support equity, you made the point that the reflection of society - that schools reflect society - and thinking about the bigger system is key. And I think about that in terms of what specific kinds of tools can we use to both respond to the broader community and also to shape the opportunities to learn within the school. One particular tool that is being used more often in the United States is equity audits. So, some of my research and scholarship looks at how can school leaders use auditing tools to start to identify, so this connects to your point, Kim about data and using data, how can we gather data to see where are there disproportionalities is within the learning experiences, the discipline patterns, the engagement in school and so forth. And there's different ways in which we gather data and can look at that data to help direct our attention to the diversity within our school and where there are inequitable opportunities to learn. And that's a way that the system can start to change. But then to build from what you're saying Pak Tee, one scholar in particular, Terrence Green in the United States, has pioneered the use of community-based equity audits that break open the schoolhouse doors and look at the broader community and where are their assets within the broader community that we're not aware of. So we have school leaders that are doing mapping exercises where they map the broader community and look at where are the social service agencies, where are the faith-based institutions, where the natural resources, in the broader community that we can work with within our school. Where are there opportunities for partnership? So a tool like an equity audit that first may look within the school, and then can look beyond the schoolhouse door would be one specific tool for developing a system to advance equity. And Kim you mentioned the teams before and bringing different people together in leadership, and think about different kinds of tools that are at leaders disposal to shift the system.
Helen Beddow
And I think actually I'm going to reverse the order of those two questions because you mentioned partnerships there so you know, what would some of these partnerships look like what would this kind of community engagement look like?
Kim Schildkamp
What I'm very interested in is the research practice partnerships. I think there's a real possibility for universities and schools to work together on diversity and equity, developing these tools that you just mentioned, helping each other making sense of all kinds of data that are already available. I mean, there is more data available to schools every day but making sense of all these data is really difficult. So I'm wondering if you're talking about what types of collaboration, if that could be one of the possibilities there.
Helen Beddow
Definitely, and then Martin was talking about like you know this kind of community audit. I mean, -and you're talking about like research partnerships - it strikes me then that there's opportunities for co-production and collaboration and how do you bring community kinds of leaders or community I guess stakeholders into some of the design of the school's audit or strategies or tools?
Martin Scanlon
So I see that you bring partnerships, whether that's a research practice partnership say between institute of higher education, and a school, or whether it's partnerships between an individual school and say, a local community-based organisation, and sometimes those are structured within the school - so we have a health clinic that comes into the school and provides some health care services right there within the school for students or for family members, or a partnership between the school and an organisation that's doing continuing education for parents, and so that there's opportunities there for direct kind of partnerships. Or whether it's school to school partnerships where we're collaborating on a professional development institute that we want to do, just to give an example. So whether it's school to school, school to community members, schools to university, there are different ways in which these partnerships can form, and I think it connects back to - how they formed connects back to Pak Tee’s point earlier about the unity of purpose. And so, when there is a synergy that's where people say “well there's something that's useful here for me that I can gain from this partnership”. That's what can drive that, because people are very busy, and people have lots of different stress in their lives. And so they're not going to come together just to come together for the sake of it, they need to have a reason that's bringing them together. One of the other structures that helps create this unity of purpose is power, and how power is shared. Schools in the United States at least often have trouble sharing power. We want the power to be really controlled within the school. And when we think about decision making, about what we're teaching and how we're teaching, sharing that with parents, sharing that with community members is very difficult for some school leaders to do, and yet, by doing that, by engaging members of the broader community, whether that's the parent community or whether that's the broader community in which the school is situated, by sharing that power of course, you build in a reason for people to come to the table and help you. So, that's something that we work on a lot and I don't say that we're, we have it all figured out, but that's a structural way in which you create these partnerships.
Kim Schildkamp
Martin I really like what you said about the power aspects. One of the things that we found when it comes to sharing - also, share it with students. One of the things that we found is that student voice data is so important if you're working in a diverse setting, if you're working on equity related goals. And often when we think about data it's student data in the form of assessment but student voice data in the form of actually sitting down with students to ask them what they think about the issues that we are dealing with, even if it's at a systems level, at a district level or at the individual school level, that can be a really powerful resource.
Helen Beddow
Pak Tee, I don’t know if you wanted to comment on partnerships and community engagement.
Pak Tee Ng
I should first, say that, Singapore is a very small place, so I'm going to do a little bit of describing, but it's not typical. So it's simply Singapore as it's set up and being such a small country. So, it is not typical, so I'm not advocating that this is like a model or anything like that. Not at all. But because Singapore is so small, it is such a small country, and we run a public school system, that is to say basically all our schools are the governments, 95% or something like that. So, when this system works in this way, all schools are actually schools of the country. So when you think from the philosophical angle then in some ways, suddenly the question of partnership and philosophies - it's a very different way of looking at things. We don't go out to say, “would you like to partner?”. It’s by the way that we are being set up - it is highly collaborative in this design. So firstly, let's say, to talk about equity. So the whole system has to believe in this thing called equity but it must start off with the whole country believing in the importance of education. That is to say, when you pick this philosophy as a whole nation education is investment is not expenditure. It's a very different way of looking at things now. In which case, then even when times are hard, there will be students, for example during COVID-19, where the parents are actually affected financially speaking, lost their job, etc. You want no child to be left behind then the schools have to be adequately resourced and you have to ask, to have the data, where would be the point in which you say “a child is left behind? “ Then you can apply the resources and say no child will be left behind, because I have enough resources to help this child and every one of us pulling together. So I think it is not just a matter of I, as a leader of school, I as a teacher, it’s a whole system issue believing in this. So, when we say, collaborative… So one way is that we tend to think of a school reaching out to another school and say will we collaborate and things like that. It's just that Singapore is set up in such a way that every school is part of a system. So in particular, for our school principals, just to illustrate the point, they actually have two identities. One, you are the principal, the leader of a school, but two, you are a leader in the entire system. That is to say, the community of school principals, is precisely the community that leads the entire education system so it's not about your school better than my school. We are all schools serving all the children in this country. Therefore, if that is the case, you find that this is how it works. If I was a school principal generally, I will want to develop my own staff members, right? So let's say I have a head of department. One of my head of mathematics or science and say “Hey, young chap, full of potential, I think - because I do want to have new vice principal or deputy principal, so I'm going to develop this person and this person is going to help me to do more things. But because this is a united system, therefore when you develop this person in our culture and context, this person will always end up being posted to another school which has a greater need. We never develop people for our own school, we always develop people for the system, and they will go to serve other places which have greater needs. So in this case, then, is a very different way of understanding collaboration, understanding partnership, understanding equity, we are looking at serving the needs of all the children, not on a school by school, class by class context.
Helen Beddow
That's very interesting and you know I think we could do with a bit of that philosophy in the UK, you know, it's about resourcing not expenditure. So yeah, our school systems are struggling a little bit under some strain from recent policy decisions. Anyway, I should not get started on that.
Martin Scanlon
So I want to just follow up on what Pak Tee you're saying here and I think it's - I’m very grateful that you go into some of the specifics about Singapore, and what creates this dual identity of ”it’s my school, as a leader, I'm a leader of this school, and I'm also a leader in this system.” And as we know, as we started talking, context makes all the difference when we're thinking about diversity and equity, and inclusion, and justice in our schools. But what I take from that is not just that there's something structurally helpful in the Singapore system to promote the investment in education as opposed to seeing it as an expenditure, but I take it at even a higher level and think the design is what matters so much. So designing the schools to advance equity and to embrace diversity within the context. So, within the context of Singapore, this is a design feature that has worked very well, and how can we, in other settings, think about the design features and the constraints that we have of those contexts, but learn to design in ways that leverage that diversity in that context to advance equity.
Helen Beddow
So zooming right in now, on something that you said Kim, about how a teacher with two students with identical grades, different backgrounds, made different recommendations for which track that student should go in and it seems to me that one of the things schools perhaps need to do is equip teachers with the ways to ask themselves, you know, reflective questions. You know how far is an individual teacher responsible for equity within schools, within school leadership?
Kim Schildkamp
I would argue that if we claim that equity is a collective responsibility that means that every individual is also responsible for equity. I mean, there are different things that every individual in our entire system can do, but I think especially for teachers, they have a very important role in their classrooms as a role model, as addressing equity issues if they arise, having learning conversations based on data ,address each other's biases if they occur. I know it's a lot of responsibility that we are laying on the shoulders of our teachers, but I do think it's very important.
Martin Scanlon
And I would build on that and say there's tremendous power - to get back to the power point there, that's where the power is also, where the power resides. So we at the school level can put in place structures, and can put in place policies, but the ways in which those policies are played out, or the ways in which those structures are enacted are at the more fine- grained level and within the classroom, even in smaller interactions between a teacher and an individual students, or two students. And there's much more power also, in the teachers hands to craft the school that's embracing the diversity therein and, and so there is responsibility as Kim was saying, and also great power.
Kim Schildkamp
I mean I also teach, and I think it’s really great if you can help enhance your students, if you see them learn. I think one of the things that we often do, especially when it comes to diversity and equity, we tend to approach things as problems. We look at students based on their problems. And of course, we need to identify their problems to be able to support them, but I also really like using a more strength approach and see what are the students assets and strengths and how can we build on these assets and strengths? And every student in every classroom has assets and strengths on which you can build. Which I think is a much more positive approach than focusing solely on problems.
Pak Tee Ng
okay for me, I think that we have to work on equity at different level, individual, class, school and as a whole system. Without one working on one level without the other, it's not going to work very well. So we need to work at different levels. But at the teachers level, I think, the important thing this is: when I see a class of students in front of me the main thing is this, regardless of race, language, religion or background do I love them equally? And I think that is the best kind of equity. That is to say, as a teacher if I could love my students, regardless of where it comes from, what sort of language they initially spoke then, I think that would be what I could do for the kids. And from the perspective of the kids, of course there's such a thing called the system that has a very big influence on my life that is true. But on a daily basis, I don't actually experience everything about policy. On a daily basis, I experience my teacher. And if my teacher could love me, regardless of who I am. That despite the teacher, being of a different race from me, Despite the teacher, maybe having a very different set of belief system from what I have. Despite the teacher, being of a different culture, from the sort of culture that I’m from, the teacher still love me, willing to work with me I feel loved as a student. And I think if teachers could do that, what a great system that would be.
Martin Scanlon
I think that conversation that we're sharing with one another, coming from different places on the globe and coming from different perspectives based on our own positions and our own life experiences is something enriching to my own formation, my ongoing formation in in this work. And I find the experience of talking with others, as well as other kinds of conversations with people in different positions in society, and across different societies, these relationships – the asset-orientation that you mentioned just now Kim and the sense of love that you just mentioned Pak Tee, these relationships are what help us in the ongoing journey to be more equitable, and be more justice oriented in our leadership practice. So I find that this kind of conversation is where my growth occurs, and I hope that our conversation is also contributing to that kind of growth amongst folks who are listening.
Kim Schildkamp
I think we have a very nice ending there.
Pak Tee Ng
Maybe a concluding remark for me. Sometimes I hear in different cultures, people are bashing educators, and I personally think that teachers are actually doing great things, and people who are working in education are people who try our best to work for the good of the future. So at least in my country, because I'm a teacher educator, I say to the teachers to believe in themselves, and also to always remember that teachers are people who plant trees, so that others sit under those trees. And perhaps no one will remember we planted those trees in the first place. So I hope to encourage all educators to just keep ploughing away. And I think it will be for a better future. So thanks very much for all your work.
Helen Beddow
Thank you. I'm actually from a family of teachers and I appreciate that very much. Thank you for listening. We'll be back in two weeks time with another episode bringing research into focus. You can follow us at @EmeraldGlobal on Twitter, and you can check out our website at Emerald group publishing dot com. You'll find the links mentioned in the episode below in the show notes.